Where Is All the Housing Going, and Why Can't I Find One? W/ Realtor Wayne Jennings – It's Not a Tiny House Podcast

Wyatt: [00:00:23] What we need are safe, secure places that someone can actually afford to live inside of.

Barna: [00:00:29] And this is a recurring theme of we're not going to let you do it.

Wyatt: [00:00:33] And you want a different lifestyle. It's Not a Tiny House podcast.

Wyatt: [00:00:37] And so you've talked about like the local market here, it's completely starved of inventory for one. Cost per square foot is really, really high. What you can sell is anything sitting on a piece of land. If somebody could develop a way to do construction of a smaller home. Commonly, what they'll say is if you're going to build a tiny house or a small home, your cost per square foot is going to go up. Right. So instead of two hundred dollars a square foot for a six hundred square foot house, or would you say was close to that. Right, 200 bucks a square foot, you're going to go its four hundred dollars a square foot and it's a, I don't know, four hundred square foot house. Right. So that's how it usually works for people. If you shrink the square footage because kitchens and bathrooms cost more per square foot to create than bedrooms do. Right. And so oftentimes that as the square footage comes down, the price per square foot goes up.

Wayne: [00:01:36] Absolutely.

Wyatt: [00:01:36] Ok, so what if that weren't the case? What if I..

Wayne: [00:01:42] It would be fantastic?

Wyatt: [00:01:44] It is fantastic then, because it now exists.

Barna: [00:01:47] I have good news for you.

Wayne: [00:01:48] You know, that was, you just walked me, right, where you needed me to be.

Wyatt: [00:01:54] Set it up. So how does it work in your world if we said there's a community of land, at what stage do you start preselling lots with prints or plans or development or how does that work?

Wayne: [00:02:12] That's a great question, because it's not as simple as it sounds. You can put a beautiful rendering with every inch of that floor plan graphically illustrated and you can give them a CD and you can tell them a thumb drive here. Go go wander through your new house.

Wyatt: [00:02:29] He said CD.

Wayne: [00:02:30] Yeah, I know, sorry about that.

Wyatt: [00:02:31] We don't use those anymore.

Wyatt: [00:02:33] So selling a chunk of land and a beautiful rendering,

Wayne: [00:02:36] Very difficult to do. What you need to find is that first person who's willing to be your your guinea pig. All you need is one. I'm almost I can almost guarantee you that the rendering isn't enough to get your first sale.

Wyatt: [00:02:53] This goes the argument. I've always said people like to be second. They do not like to be first.

Wayne: [00:02:58] And they also like to be the first one in the finished product, Then they will buy it. But if if you try to sell them on something that's at all virtual. It's the thing it's a dead end,

Wyatt: [00:03:11] Even in a market right now where people are 17 people per house are putting in offers. Cash offers are coming in.

Barna: [00:03:17] And waiting a year.

Wyatt: [00:03:18] Waiting two years.

Wayne: [00:03:19] Well, they will wait.

Barna: [00:03:21] Then how are you preselling those houses up in the springs? There are other houses just like it?

Wayne: [00:03:24] You need a quote unquote model. You need a model home. Is that in the cards? Is it possible

Barna: [00:03:31] We already have them.

Wyatt: [00:03:32] It's called a hotel for us.

Wayne: [00:03:33] Well right. But yes. But I thought you talking about it even a separate project.

Wyatt: [00:03:37] No

Barna: [00:03:37] It's still a model home for that.

Wayne: [00:03:39] Then you're you're fine. Yeah. But anyway, I kind of belaboued that fact. But the fast that a picture is worth 10 words is it's problematic.

Wyatt: [00:03:50] And honestly, a thousand words. If you text a thousand words anymore, we use the letter U for the word you now. Everybody knows that. So how many letters is a picture worth?

Wayne: [00:04:00] Yeah. You got to give them that Twitter account.

Wyatt: [00:04:03] Yeah. Only so many characters right?

Wayne: [00:04:07] But the the buyer is the same regardless of price point. There's not someone that a different price point who's going to take the plunge sooner than somebody else.

Barna: [00:04:15] So do you think there's a market. So there's a lot of talk about like tiny houses and ADUs and all kinds of other alternative housing structures. Do you see a need for those? Because everything I hear about tiny houses, one, they're small, expensive, where are you going to put it? So there's other issues that go along with that. Is there a group of people in this county and others who just need a roof over their head?

Wayne: [00:04:42] Yes.

Barna: [00:04:43] Running water.

Barna: [00:04:44] You know, that's affordable.

Wayne: [00:04:46] A place for a bed. A sink. A toilet. A refrigerator, of whatever size. Yes, absolutely.

Barna: [00:04:54] How big is that market?

Wayne: [00:04:57] It's pretty big. One of the issues, though, is what? That person who is willing. Or would enjoy that small environment is probably not as much a buyer as there are renter.

Wyatt: [00:05:11] Sure.

Barna: [00:05:12] OK

Wayne: [00:05:14] Because they think they're going to wait?

Wayne: [00:05:15] Because it's not a forever house.

Wyatt: [00:05:17] So that's that's been the discussion for a long time. And our our viewpoint on that has been if it were a smaller house and we could control the cost per square foot so that it were an option where they could actually finance it based on their debt to income ratio, because we got a lot of let's just say it's a younger person. Here's our, ah, surrogate right there, a younger person in their mid 20s student loan debt. And so their debt to income ratio is a little bit challenging from a lending standpoint. And so, nobody's going to give him a mortgage for two hundred grand. Right. It's off the table because their debt income is wrong, but they can get a mortgage for 70 or 80, but there's no inventory for 70 to 80. Even if they bought that, instead of renting and owning now, they would be gaining equity and they would be able to sell that asset when they wanted to upgrade.

Wayne: [00:06:11] Better yet, hang on to it.

Wyatt: [00:06:12] Or hang onto it and rent it to the next generation if you can. Now, renting to the next generation doesn't do anything for the equity of the next generation. And this is something that has been seen inside the current real estate market. Right. Many people followed that model. They bought it. Then they as soon as they got enough equity in it, they could buy another one and they rented that one out. But when you're renting, your opportunity to gain equity is nonexistent. And if rent is held too high for your income, then you can't save.

Wayne: [00:06:43] And you're not helping that person.

Wyatt: [00:06:44] So it can't domino. It only collects to the certain, right. And so that's a personal choice some people don't want to own because they feel of the the liability of that payment being there for the next however many years. Right. So I just want to rent so I can walk away from it. I don't know how to fix a hot water heater or whatever. I don't want to deal with it. I want to pay taxes on it.

Barna: [00:07:08] And a lot of a lot of those apartment complexes are like more of a lifestyle choice. It's a lot of apartments have tons of amenities now.

Wayne: [00:07:17] And they're catering to that person who isn't going to be there more than a couple of years. And they're counting on that being a stepping stone for that individual to to move on to a purchase at some point. But here's yet here's the dilemma. It used to be that's what happened. Right. But now they're staying longer and the rents are going up and they're having to, you know, suck it up and not leave because there's nowhere else to go.

Barna: [00:07:40] And there's no savings because now you're Spending three to four grand a month.

Wayne: [00:07:43] And wages aren't increasing to the point where that it's helping that person.

Wyatt: [00:07:46] And it goes to wages. Again, wages have been or housing expenses and medical care costs have far and education too have far outpaced wages. Like they just there's no way for you to catch it now. It's a it's a runaway train. Right. And so and so that runaway train crashes and everything comes back, we're not going to catch up to it. Or you have to have a smaller, faster cart that can catch it. And that's our that's my thought, right. Is a less expensive, although equitable asset, like a smaller home. That's that's that's now we have a huge need for it, as we've talked about and we've learned in the market, there's there's a gap there. There's a vacuum, if you will. If you could create a house for one hundred thousand dollars on the market turnkey, how long would it last? Regardless of square footage,

Wayne: [00:08:38] You mean how long the inventory would last if you built that?

Barna: [00:08:41] Yeah if you put it on the market today,

Wayne: [00:08:42] I think it would be gone in no time. If you're really talking about under a 100000.

Wyatt: [00:08:46] Yeah we're really talking about under 100000 for a living unit.

Barna: [00:08:50] With some land.

Wayne: [00:08:53] Fencing?

Wyatt: [00:08:55] Probably not, put it in yourself.

Wayne: [00:08:57] That's what we ask.

Wyatt: [00:08:58] That's what we did. That's what you would have to do if you had to earn.

Wayne: [00:09:01] And remember part of the attraction to living smaller and getting out of that condo or apartment in the big city is that you're just tired of taking Fido up and down the elevator to do his business. Yeah, and a yard, especially for a millennial is a game changer,

Wyatt: [00:09:20] Huge, right? And so that's kind of like how do we how do we get to that? Because in many places, at least here in Fremont County, Florence at large, Canyon City, they have minimum square footage requirements. And that means that you can't they won't they won't give you a permit to build that structure if it's not a certain amount of square footage which now correlates to a certain price, which means you have to go take out this amount of money unless you come with 200 grand cash. Why is our government forcing us to spend money? Is my question,

Wayne: [00:09:59] Because I don't think government's on board with with affordable housing.

Wyatt: [00:10:02] Because we're not voting and people aren't showing up. And Barna said it a long time ago. If you're not going to more city council meetings and you are rallies, you're doing it wrong. We need to get attendance.

Wayne: [00:10:13] Touché

Wayne: [00:10:14] They are not as sexy as a protest, you know that right?

Wyatt: [00:10:17] They are protest.

Barna: [00:10:18] Imagine, imagine if the amount of people they show up to a protest, show up to city council meetings every month.

Wyatt: [00:10:24] Demanding smaller houses.

Barna: [00:10:27] You couldn't fit them in the building.

Wayne: [00:10:28] That would be be fantastic. And you get all sorts of good coverage.

Wyatt: [00:10:32] Oh, yeah here is the news guy in you.

Wayne: [00:10:34] So now I got a visual thing going on there. Now you have more exposure to your

Wyatt: [00:10:39] To your cause and your community. And and I mean, it starts with a pin prick.

Wayne: [00:10:44] Who Wants to cover a council meeting, right? They do it.

Wyatt: [00:10:46] They try. I've been there a couple of, but it's it's pretty quiet. It's kind of a snooze fest.

Barna: [00:10:51] But the issue Is that people are passing rules without anybody present who that affects. And that's federal down to local.

Wayne: [00:10:58] If they Knew they would be protesting,

Wyatt: [00:11:00] If they knew it was going on or if they could take time away from either work or family to to be in attendance, this is the one thing where.

Barna: [00:11:06] The problem is you're working your ass off to to make your overpriced rent,

Wayne: [00:11:10] Correct. You had to work overtime the day of the council meeting your not going to be there.

Barna: [00:11:15] You're working three jobs, a night shift because it pays more so you can afford a crappy apartment that's overpriced and daycare. And food, minimal food, not name brand food, not sushi, food. You need a car to make it to work because I know people that lost their license, now they can't work.

Wyatt: [00:11:34] You guys do laundry and you feed the coin machine or where you do laundry? That's extra.

Barna: [00:11:38] So now how are those people supposed to show up to city council?

Wyatt: [00:11:43] That's that's part of the argument, right?

Wayne: [00:11:45] Well, you know, there are a lot of municipalities that have for years held their meetings during the day when no one can be there, convenient. So at least at least locally there are evening meetings. It helps a little bit.

Barna: [00:11:58] It used to be a three.

Wayne: [00:11:59] Hmm.

Wyatt: [00:12:00] But but there are other ways too right like?

Wayne: [00:12:02] Only if you work the night shift.

Barna: [00:12:05] If you work the night shift you can make it to the three o'clock one. You, you're just not scheduling your life right. It's your fault.

Wyatt: [00:12:11] It's your fault. Stop victimizing yourself. Well and so but there is another way. If you can't make it, you can write letters. Yes. City managers, city planners, city staff, letters to the editor. Don't text it but write it right and go these are my issues.

Barna: [00:12:28] Sign it.

Wayne: [00:12:30] It use complete words. Yes.

Wyatt: [00:12:31] Use complete words. Full sentences.

Barna: [00:12:33] Better yet have your attorney write the letter.

Wayne: [00:12:34] You are not helping me.

Wyatt: [00:12:39] I need more help please. Comma no comma.

Wyatt: [00:12:46] One of those things where

Barna: [00:12:47] And you're changing a number in the code like we're not trying to rewrite anything, you just go minimal square footage is..

Wayne: [00:12:56] So here's the thing.

Barna: [00:12:57] One fifty.

Wyatt: [00:12:59] I got a question for you. You know the area well, are there are a lot of empty lots in, let's just say, Florence at large? There are numerous empty lots?

Wayne: [00:13:08] There is vacant acreage. Yes. Sometimes bigger parcels than anyone can get their head around or need.

Wyatt: [00:13:15] City center where a lot of the houses

Wayne: [00:13:17] Infill. Not enough. Very few.

Wyatt: [00:13:20] Yeah. So if you go, we're going to change the minimum square footage. It's not like people are going to roll in, knock down the already too small houses on the already too small plots and build more small houses. This is going to take place outside of our city center already is. Right, because there's no available land in the middle of town because that's where everybody already built, because we used to walk to work and that's where the houses got built. So this concept that you're going to drop my property value, which is kind of foreign to me, and how building something brand new is and because it's small, it's going to depreciate your property value. I don't understand. But also, why do you care if I want 500 square feet over here? Because there are many older houses. There were six hundreds and hundreds anyway.

Wayne: [00:14:07] Yeah, those sell like hotcakes.

Wyatt: [00:14:09] Gone, right, at the right price point. But right now, the only way we can't do it, the only reason we can't actually do it. The minimum square footage requirement is a block on what size structure we can build. You could sell it easily.

Barna: [00:14:25] OK, what if you have 30 of them.

Wayne: [00:14:27] On how much acreage

Barna: [00:14:29] It would be about? I think it was point one seven acres per lot.

Wayne: [00:14:34] Well, that's very generous. Not sure you have to do that.

Barna: [00:14:37] I'm super generous.

Wayne: [00:14:38] But what if you had have you left a quarter acre would be.

Wayne: [00:14:44] Whatever, tenth of an acre,

Wayne: [00:14:48] Let's call it a half acre for the purposes of this discussion. That's that's a huge get.

Wyatt: [00:14:54] So put a small house on a half acre. Let's call it three hundred square feet house, somebody wants one. What do you think that goes for?

Wayne: [00:15:04] Just right at 100.

Wyatt: [00:15:06] Yeah, right

Wayne: [00:15:07] Right at 100.

Wyatt: [00:15:09] And you wouldn't be able to keep an inventory.

Wayne: [00:15:11] 99.9

Wyatt: [00:15:12] Yeah, right.

Barna: [00:15:15] Asking 99.5, just to mix it up. I'm willing to go all the way down to 99.4. I'm here to negotiate.

Wayne: [00:15:26] Any any seller concessions? Are you helping with loan costs. Are you adding, are you allowing them to upgrade. What, what happens with that buyer who catches you at just the right time. The house is the house is the house, and then they can upgrade after closing? Is that the plan? You wouldn't do anything.

Wyatt: [00:15:45] You're going to get a turnkey.

Wayne: [00:15:47] I think you start to customize the interior. And frankly, I think that gets it can open a can of worms.

Wyatt: [00:15:52] It does.

Wayne: [00:15:53] And that's just here's the house. Here's what comes with it. And it's perfectly adequate. In fact, it's nice.

Wyatt: [00:15:59] And for one for hours, it's here's one of three floor plans.

Wayne: [00:16:02] You're going to get one buyer after the other if it's not finished yet. This is what I, I struggle with the builder that I'm working with. Could we change it? Yeah, just yeah, I could. I need some Brazilian this or some granite from this. It's going to delay the closing. Especially during a pandemic. We're not going to be able to get that stuff.

Wyatt: [00:16:24] That's the other thing material shortages.

Wayne: [00:16:25] You have to be careful that you're not creating a custom home experience for somebody. The moment that house is up, completed, attached to the foundation, that's the best time to sell it. So that's where you get the conflict of presale versus done and ready and sold.

Wyatt: [00:16:46] You want to paint it paint.

Wayne: [00:16:47] But the problem is you cannot you cannot build in the dark of night and have it ready the next morning,

Wyatt: [00:16:53] Not with an attitude like that you can't.

Wayne: [00:16:54] So when they find out when they find out that your your building's like, oh, well, of course I want to be part of this. And I want to I want to get your expenses up as high as possible at the same price.

Barna: [00:17:05] We're not doing that. So the let's say we've got a lot we want to develop. We can get 30 units on there. Let's say we have a model home already that can be toured, three or four floor plans. You could sell that?

Wayne: [00:17:22] Yes, and it's nice to have more than one floorplan choice. What about the exterior elevation? Is it going to look like tinytown? In other words, every roofline, every front looks the same? Every house is the same color?

Wyatt: [00:17:40] No, absolutely not.

Wayne: [00:17:43] Ok, so if I wanted turquoise?

Wyatt: [00:17:45] It's your house, bro. Yeah, that's my thought. Like, I don't like to be told.

Barna: [00:17:49] Here is a gallon of paint and a brush from Habitat, you are good.

Wayne: [00:17:54] It comes unfinished that way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why don't you let them put the doors and windows in themselves?

Wyatt: [00:17:58] No, no more paint from there. That's stuff isn't, it just didn't pass my test.

Barna: [00:18:00] The brush is from habitat.

Wyatt: [00:18:02] No it's not either. It doesn't hold paint. I had this conversation with somebody else. I go, you know you know Jack, I go, here's why you buy the fifteen dollar paint brush because they were doing this dollar paint brush stuff. I got it holds paint and you can hold a line when you're cutting in a ceiling. You know what he said at the end of that? You know, you're right about that paint brush thing. And I'm like, if only for one thing that I showed you.

Wayne: [00:18:24] How many houses did they go through before they learned?

Barna: [00:18:25] We need him on the podcast to say it on the air.

Wyatt: [00:18:28] I would I would love to have him and Susan on, they're both so great. But yeah, it was one of those things are like, no, I'm not joking about this. It's not because like, I like to spend money on paintbrushes. It's because the job gets done correctly with the right tool. But we have different modus. Millennials like to spend more money on stuff. But also with the belief that it does a better job.

Wayne: [00:18:52] That's why builders think you want to spend more money on your house. Here you go. Here's, here's a high priced.

Wyatt: [00:18:57] I don't know and that's the other thing. Is it the greed of the builder who wants his prices aren't going up on what his labor costs, its material costs are driving it?

Wayne: [00:19:04] Well, we had, we had an experience about six, eight months ago, and you probably had the same experience where lumber was up three times.

Wyatt: [00:19:13] Yeah, but also our houses are super small. So it wasn't like a huge.

Wayne: [00:19:16] Sure. You didn't need a lot of lumber.

Wyatt: [00:19:18] Not a lot.

Barna: [00:19:19] And we found a workaround anyway, so it's alright.

Wyatt: [00:19:21] Plus I pre-bought when everything got weird this time last year I went and bought bunks and material and I was like, I don't know what's going to happen but.

Wayne: [00:19:27] That was smart, hoarder.

Wyatt: [00:19:31] They're all used now.

Wayne: [00:19:32] It wasn't left for the rest of us. Thanks. I guess that's why it slowed down construction.

Barna: [00:19:34] Actually that's why the price went up. Wyatt.

Wayne: [00:19:36] Yeah. There's this guy named Wyatt yesterday

Wyatt: [00:19:40] It was me.

Wayne: [00:19:41] He pulled up with a shipping container and he loaded the whole thing fully of wood.

Barna: [00:19:44] It was my box truck he pulled up with.

Wyatt: [00:19:48] My butterfly effect was less than that of a gnat inside of a football Stadium. OK, it didn't do anything. But but many people did. As soon as there was a shortage and they started to soar, they started to see that price go up. Then they were like, oh, shit. And they started buying bunks from the box stores and stuff. And when their inventory went down, everything was it was just chaos. Plus, I don't know if this is true or not, but it seemed like when I was in the store in the middle of the week, there were multiple non-professional builders in a place where normally it was just many times it was just professional builders in there. And it was like the lines were long. So we took this

Barna: [00:20:29] Fighting over two by fours.

Wyatt: [00:20:30] Oh, it was ridiculous.

Wayne: [00:20:30] It's getting ugly.

Wyatt: [00:20:31] Because more people were buying because they were at home and they were now they're going to do the projects, right? That's what I saw.

Wayne: [00:20:36] And rebar is really dangerous. I mean, if you're swinging that around,

Wyatt: [00:20:39] Can be.

Barna: [00:20:41] If you're doing it right.

Wyatt: [00:20:41] It can be helpful if you're the guy swinging it.

Wayne: [00:20:43] If you can find any Wyatt took it all yesterday.

Wyatt: [00:20:47] Rebar? What would I be doing with rebar. I don't I don't, I'm not, I'm not a concrete guy. I know for most of my life I've been like, no, no, no, no, no I'm not a concrete guy.

Wayne: [00:20:57] Isn't that how you hold down the container?

Wyatt: [00:20:58] No, we built a different system.

Barna: [00:21:02] It's proprietary.

Wayne: [00:21:03] You guys have been very innovative.

Wyatt: [00:21:03] Trying to be. Luckily, we picked steel prices were right. You know, wood shot, but steel.

Wayne: [00:21:11] Any shortage of containers.

Barna: [00:21:16] Yes.

Wayne: [00:21:16] And why? Can you trace that back to China?

Wyatt: [00:21:19] What, what they've told me, two different suppliers have said. Yeah, it was the lack of imports from China embargoes and various things like that. That's what they said.

Barna: [00:21:31] The new tariffs. So people are buying less because you have a 30 percent up charge and everything you buy.

Wyatt: [00:21:38] So apparently there are are fewer coming back overseas currently until both of them said the same thing. Like maybe if new, the new administration opens it up a little bit more to back to trading how it was.

Barna: [00:21:51] Well, they still said six months. Like end of the summer kind of.

Wyatt: [00:21:55] It still didn't shoot up not not as much as wood, but also you still couldn't create that structure from wood for a shipping container anyway. And you still couldn't. Even if Wood had stayed the same and the shipping container were now at its current price, you still couldn't build it for the current price out of wood. For dollars in labor inciting and and this is before we talk about what its components are, which is

Barna: [00:22:23] The quality of the actual metal.

Wyatt: [00:22:23] the quality of the siding of the products in those things, too. So, yeah, it's just a more durable product for less money and it can ship. It's pretty slick, but you have to kind of know how to play with it from there, which is the the brain damage. Thank you. And not as near as much progress as we as we would both like to have made.

Wayne: [00:22:43] Of course, because we want it done yesterday.

Wyatt: [00:22:45] But we you know, we hit some really important friction. And for a while we would just kind of get mad about this or that. This happened. That happened. And then now it's a little bit after the fact. It's easier. Kind of like running a marathon. It's never fun until you're done with it. Then it's like, oh, that was a cool story. I remember that shitty adventure that I had, you know.

Wayne: [00:23:07] People do it all over again.

Wyatt: [00:23:07] Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Barna: [00:23:10] Pain is the first thing that leaves the body too. So at the end of the marathon like one and done man, I'm not doing this again. Two weeks later.

Wyatt: [00:23:19] You're looking.

Barna: [00:23:21] Maybe there's another one I can do.

Wyatt: [00:23:22] Why wouldn't I have already done the training. I'm already trained.

Barna: [00:23:24] I did a half like a month later.

Wyatt: [00:23:30] And so I think for us it is, we've hit a few blocks that we wouldn't have known about and that's kind of why the podcast was created, because we did something out of order or we did something that was technically not going to be allowed. And so we had to have a conversation to be like for me, my first response was, well, the minimum square footage is this. I said, well, what's the maximum square footage? And how do you set one perimeter without another.

Wayne: [00:23:57] And what is your maximum?

Wyatt: [00:23:59] What is it? And it's it's land built, it's percentage of land use. So it's relative to.

Wayne: [00:24:03] And you're talking about one container next to the other next to the other is where your square footage comes from obviously.

Wyatt: [00:24:08] It could, if depending on again if you link them together now they're going to call that one home.

Wayne: [00:24:15] Well they're going to call that a train and its not zoned for that.

Wyatt: [00:24:19] No we're not doing that direction.

Wayne: [00:24:21] Well, that might be good too. I don't know.

Barna: [00:24:23] But we did the numbers on it. I was looking at some,

Wayne: [00:24:27] Long...sorry, that's not what I meant. Stacked next to each other. It's like it's a derailed train.

Barna: [00:24:34] A pile. Just a pile Of them. Not even...

Wyatt: [00:24:39] You know what, we could make some wonderfully cool looking architecture by doing that. And people would be like it doesn't look good.

Wayne: [00:24:45] Like Stonehenge. You could have them stacked.

Wyatt: [00:24:47] Like on head, on end or whatever. I wanted to do a hot tub on top and he's like, no, I'm scared of heights. And I'm like, I'm not. And I can get away from you up there.

Barna: [00:24:58] You build it. It's all you. You pay for the crane.

Wyatt: [00:25:04] It would be fun, just saying.

Wayne: [00:25:06] I wouldn't rule it out.

Wyatt: [00:25:08] Hey man with with my time and your money I'll build just about anything.

Barna: [00:25:12] It's running out.

Wyatt: [00:25:15] I hear that. That's what we're talking about selling.

Barna: [00:25:16] That's what we're talking to a realtor who can give us some information on how to sell something.

Wayne: [00:25:22] But actually, I do have another question about it. Right. So so goes the land use and it goes to listings as a real estate broker and as an agent. Residential market is listed in a different place than commercial. So you're not going to go on to however you choose to go Realtor.com or whatever where Berkshire Hathaway's listings or anything, you're not going to find commercial properties in the same listing column, if you will, as residential.

Wayne: [00:25:49] Correct.

Wyatt: [00:25:49] How does that work?

Wayne: [00:25:51] You explain it very, very well.

Wyatt: [00:25:54] How do I how do I search for one versus the other? I mean, it's in there.

Wayne: [00:25:57] Well, in some of the sites, it is a good question, for some of the sites don't even upload the commercial category from the local MLS, That's why on Zillow and Realtor.com, which is frankly more reliable.

Wyatt: [00:26:10] OK, well, hey, we have no allegiance here.

Wayne: [00:26:12] I've got my Zillow concerns.

Barna: [00:26:16] I make fun of people that use Zillow.

Wyatt: [00:26:17] I've heard you do it. So I'm just like, OK.

Wayne: [00:26:19] Well almost everyone does but you'll find that..

Wyatt: [00:26:23] I didn't know.

Wayne: [00:26:25] When I found out a neighbor saw her home for sale on Zillow and she has lived there for 15 years and had no plans to sell. Worse yet was the relative saw the mom's house for sale first.

Wyatt: [00:26:39] Mom's moving out.

Wayne: [00:26:40] It was like I just had dinner over there. What she didn't tell me mentioned. You tell me that she's moving. Realtor.com has more real time status updates. So if you are looking for commercial, there's another site called LoopNet. Something you have seen already. Realtor.com will handle land vacant land residential for the most part.

Barna: [00:27:08] But also multi-family, right, so it'll go to four units maybe.

Wayne: [00:27:11] Correct. Duplexes, triplexes. fourplex are all in there too, but that'll be under the income category.

Wyatt: [00:27:16] Oh I see. They've got a different tab.

Wayne: [00:27:19] And that should show up on a Realtor.com as well. So it's really commercial that gets murky because you have commercial brokers who have their own system of sharing information and they don't often let us know, just the general public, what what they have listed. You might see a sign.

Barna: [00:27:38] They don't play together well?

Wayne: [00:27:40] They play together well but they just don't play with the outside real estate community the same way. And I don't think it's intentional. It's just the way that it is. It's always been that way.

Wyatt: [00:27:50] That must make it right.

Wayne: [00:27:52] Correct.

Wyatt: [00:27:52] Didn't we just talk about that?

Wayne: [00:27:53] Always the way we've done it.

Wyatt: [00:27:54] Yeah. And that makes it a that makes it, literally was that last recording or this recording. It was the last one I said I said and you hadn't heard it. So this is new. But I'll say it again. Consistency is no equal sign to correct. Right. Because we've always done it that way.

Wayne: [00:28:10] Wow that's a bumper sticker isn't it?

Wyatt: [00:28:12] Yeah. Maybe, I'll make it. It could be.

Wayne: [00:28:17] Wyatt underneath it. Just just Wyatt.

Barna: [00:28:19] Dot com.

Wayne: [00:28:24] I thought it was just like why.com. It's probably the better website for you.

Wyatt: [00:28:31] Do you deal with rentals as well? What's the what's like the sweet spot and I don't I'm talking square footage. I'm back to dollar amount again. What's like what's the what's the breaking point on that's too expensive. I ah we can't afford it. And what's the where are you at with what's the number, what's the magic number for a rental that does not last.

Wayne: [00:28:51] Well I'd probably answer that with two different

Wyatt: [00:28:54] Questions maybe but

Wayne: [00:28:55] Answers. Yeah it if you're looking at someone who is in that twenty to thirty five age group, their sweet spot is probably, you know, right around a thousand. You get someone older

Wyatt: [00:29:12] And they want to go down in money

Wayne: [00:29:13] And they actually no they, they, they want to spend more because they want, they want the extras, that a younger person doesn't demand right now.

Wyatt: [00:29:21] I can live without it or whatever.

Barna: [00:29:25] Like a garage, that kind of extras.

Wayne: [00:29:26] Exactly. Yeah.

Wyatt: [00:29:28] Like a whole another building, just an additional building.

Barna: [00:29:32] Yeah. I have two garages. I don't have a single car inside a garage.

Wayne: [00:29:35] Of course not. Nobody does that.

Barna: [00:29:37] I'm just saying like why have a garage?

Wyatt: [00:29:39] Those are called car holes. If you're going to put a car hole in the house,

Barna: [00:29:44] Just junk storage at my house.

Wayne: [00:29:47] You have looks like you have a shed attached your house with two big doors.

Wyatt: [00:29:53] Sorry can't do it.

Wayne: [00:29:53] We are going to call it something else and have you tear it down.

Wyatt: [00:30:01] Sorry, start over, try again.

Barna: [00:30:02] Is that an ADU attached to your house?

Wyatt: [00:30:02] It is. If you put a window in that doorway and that's illegal.

Wayne: [00:30:08] You guys know. Yeah. You guys know exactly what the definition is, as it morphs.

Barna: [00:30:13] OK, so yeah I, I saw this up in Denver and I think in the Springs too is where people will just enclose the garage and it's very obviously poorly done, enclosed the garage, turn it into another bedroom. Is that something that people are doing now?

Wayne: [00:30:27] It's a bad idea, just a bad idea. If you really need the space, I guess you do that. But we've all seen tasteful versions of that where they actually take out the garage door. Sometimes they'll just drywall over the insides and no, no accounting for heat, extra power, nothing.

Wayne: [00:30:53] They might put some family members in there temporarily and hope they don't stay very long. Keep it cold.

Wyatt: [00:30:58] Sure. That's lovely.

Wayne: [00:31:00] Hope they leave.

Wyatt: [00:31:01] That's lovely.

Wayne: [00:31:02] But, yeah, there is that remodel job that really does not help you with resale, if that helps any.

Wyatt: [00:31:11] Poorly done work never is rewarded is what you are saying.

Wayne: [00:31:14] Yeah, never. And now you do not have a garage.

Barna: [00:31:17] That's why I typically try not to buy any house those flipped or recently redone because you never know.

Wyatt: [00:31:22] And you can see all that stuff because now we have access to the MLS where you could say this was bought six months ago. Your spidey senses might want to come on at that point.

Wayne: [00:31:30] And you can kind of tell by the carpet and tile.

Barna: [00:31:33] If it's all beige and white.

Wyatt: [00:31:34] And it's eighty thousand dollars more than it was six months ago, I wonder what happened here?

Wayne: [00:31:38] You can you can see that the. Yeah. The color palette is flip. They don't even try.

Wayne: [00:31:45] Builder beige.

Wayne: [00:31:46] They don't even try to fake it.

Barna: [00:31:49] Hey, Lyndhurst beige.

Wayne: [00:31:49] Now it's gray.

Wyatt: [00:31:50] Yeah. Oh yeah. No, the color palettes. Now it's

Barna: [00:31:53] Sonic silver, man. That's what I use on everything.

Wayne: [00:31:55] Sonic silver?

Barna: [00:31:55] Sonic silver, man.

Wyatt: [00:31:56] He's not joking.

Barna: [00:31:58] I am dead serious.

Wyatt: [00:31:59] Real color. That's his.

Wayne: [00:32:00] I thought that was a nickname for me.

Wyatt: [00:32:03] Fantastic. And with that, the last words on this one.

Barna: [00:32:10] Do we need do we need like where can people find you if they're looking for an awesome realtor in the Fremont County or what is it, El Paso County.

Wayne: [00:32:20] Just check our local AARP magazine.

Wyatt: [00:32:24] Oh, he's doing it himself now.

Wayne: [00:32:26] Print, you got to check print.

Barna: [00:32:28] Just got to get him started. We have nothing to do now.

Wayne: [00:32:33] The website is peakdream.com.

Wyatt: [00:32:36] Ok, peak, P E A K.

Wayne: [00:32:40] You know, when we first came up with this web site, do you want me to share a quick story.

Barna: [00:32:44] Yeah, sure.

Wyatt: [00:32:45] Yeah.

Wayne: [00:32:45] Because we put in P E A K D R E A M wasn't taken but up come alternative site suggestion's, P E E K uh huh and a lot of porn.

Wyatt: [00:33:00] Wow. Seriously. Yeah?

Wayne: [00:33:03] Like peekaboo and peek into this.

Wyatt: [00:33:05] And this is where they thought you were headed with this?

Wayne: [00:33:07] So we just we're we're talking about the mountain here. Let's keep it straight.

Wyatt: [00:33:11] Pikes Peak.

Wayne: [00:33:12] Peak.

Wyatt: [00:33:13] For those of you wondering, there's a big ass mountain that we can all see from everywhere.

Wayne: [00:33:17] I like to say its a big pile of rocks,

Wyatt: [00:33:19] Big pile rocks.

Wayne: [00:33:20] And we love it.

Wyatt: [00:33:20] It's way up there. So peakdream.com, they'll find you there. And if you're looking to rent, if you're looking to buy, if you're looking to try and find a way to contact us. Because because like Barna says that his sign off:

Barna: [00:33:32] Don't call me.

Wyatt: [00:33:33] You're supposed to finish it.

Barna: [00:33:35] That was it.

Wayne: [00:33:38] Well, it's nice to end on such a high note.

Barna: [00:33:43] Don't call me. I'll call you.

Wayne: [00:33:46] But he won't.

Barna: [00:33:47] But I wont.

Wayne: [00:33:48] Because I don't care about your phone number.

Barna: [00:33:50] Because my phone is off right now just like the rest of the day. It's off.

Wyatt: [00:33:54] So they'll find you there, if anybody's looking, and if you're looking for us you'll find us here.

Wyatt: [00:33:59] I said what I said.

Barna: [00:31:42] Follow us, like us, share, subscribe. Follow us on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook or wherever you consume your podcasts.

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